Building an Elite Public School Program with Brian Dunn Head Coach Old Tappan HS

Building an Elite Public School Program with Brian Dunn Head Coach Old Tappan HS with Coach Schuman and Coach Depascale

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All right we're we're back with another Uh great podcast been a busy week busy Last few weeks um in before everybody Gets into Camp yep yep and then now now Dipping into my uh reaching out to these Like sports influencer guys wait till You get wait till you see some of these Guys this could be great um you you'll Be in Camp anyway so you some character But there's some characters coming oh That'll be it'll be great we have a Great guest on today coach Don from Mapan high school um I've coached with Coach uh he's he is one of the Legends In high school football coaching um he's Won multiple state championships he won State group Championship um he's coach Multiple NFL players um and having from A coaching standpoint coached with him Um having as a watching him from afar Way back when I started uh as a head Coach at sbur high school what he was Doing when he first took over at Ultan um it's just been incredible the Rise of the program and then the Sustainability of the program so right Um not not just the rise of what he's Where he's taken them to but the ability Suay and be one of the top programs year In and year out um in New Jersey um I Don't know where he is on the wins list But I I looked at like a year or two ago He was really climbing fast um towards Towards I he might be in the top 10 in

In um 10 wins a year helps yeah that's Right in North Jersey so U may maybe Higher so uh I I could I could be wrong But yeah but I want to say this without Even go as great as a football coach as He is and he is a phenomenal football Coach no doubt Hall of Famer type of Thing um Bas women's basketball girls Basketball I guess you call in high School girls basketball coach he's been To the Tournament of Champions you know In the final four um he's coached so Many college girl athletes his team has Won multiple St state championships in In girls basketball as well so you could You could debate whether he is a uh a Better football coach or or a better Basketball coach but without further ado Let's bring on Coach dun coach what's Going on not much what's going on Welcome coach welcome it's great to have You on it really is um uh you know your Career has been unbelievable uh you know In high school coaching and and like I Said in two sports I think you used to Coach you used to coach baseball too for Yeah yeah for a bunch of years y y bunch Of years used coach baseball as well um Just just kind of go into depth like From how you started in coaching and Really you know how how you got to the Point where you're At um well I mean uh I started right out Of college like just you know everybody

Else like I played played for a year in College at Providence when I was on the Last football team at Providence College They the program after my freshman year So that was uh that was I had a great Experience there I transition over Played rugby the next couple of years Because we didn't have a football team As opposed to like today you'd probably Transfer out people and do that stuff oh God you be G you in two seconds yeah Yeah yeah but uh yeah so transition over And uh finished up I played rugby and Then you know was like a history major In college but then got my teaching Degree certificate while I was there I Figured I'll do it while I'm here and uh Right you know then got out and coached Football like back at alaan for my first Year out of college and uh eventually Got a teaching job at pic Valley then I Went to pasag Hills and Tau Co taught And Coach a couple years there then I Got a full-time teaching gig at ulten And was back as an assistant there for Five years and then uh took over as the Head coach in 2000 and uh been there Ever since so you know uh had a lot of Lot of good teachers and coaches like All of us you know that kind of got into It had good teachers and coaches that Kind of influenced you and you kind of Trying to figure out what to do and you Realize those people had big influence

On you you and uh and you you kind of Follow in their footsteps so so that was It that's how I kind Of kind of ended up at alapan and uh Been there ever since been a great run For me um you know maybe not at the Beginning like all of us we R through Tough times and um but uh first couple Years weren't so hot and people trying To run you out and everything else but Oh yeah dodging bullets left and right Oh yeah yeah yeah I went the uh yeah the The pivotal Moment Like starting off as The head coach because I've been there For five years an assistant you think Like all of us we think we know Everything you know when you're 30 years Old you think you know everything you Ready for the job and we start off like First year we go 0 and six to start off You know and you're like this is a Little tougher than I thought and then Uh we we then uh second year we're two And eight finish up two and eight and I Remember like the season had ended I'm Going into coach girls Hoops too Whatever and and but we had like one of Those half days in service days right Tom caselle was the athletic director God bless his soul he's passed away but Dave knows him yep great guy and he was Long Time and he was new at the job and he C Like I was I it like one of those half

Days and my wife would come in we're Gonna go out to lunch in between she had A half day too whatever and I just Stopped in I had to drop something off In the office he goes uh you gotta come In here I remember saying like he just Started to unload on me about the past Season how bad we were all and I could See he never talked to me like I was Going Nuts and he's he's laying into me about Did you buy a box of cigars for the guy Who does the announcing up in the up in The Press Box for the games I said I'm Like what the hell is this guy talk Talking about and I realized he was like Under a lot of pressure people coming After him like yeah he was probably Feeling the heat from yeah yeah and I Had to I told my looked out the door I Told my wife we're not having lunch you Know I gotta stay in here for a while And I remember him unloading on me that Was the first time real a lot of other Things going on I'm like I got to worry About buying cigars for somebody like What the hell is this you know and uh But it's like one of those wake up Moments where you start growing up a Little bit into the growing into the job And realizing how much more there is to It and right and all the other little Things surrounding it so yeah but but I've since then I've had a great run

Place has been great I live in the District my kids went to school there And played for me and Dave knows my son And amazing and uh so I've had a great Run and great friends great people there So it's been a good deal for me I I miss Thomas he's the best yeah he might run Back and he'll hear your voice he might Pop in and say hi Oh that's that that's Awesome you tell definitely tell him I Said hello um it's uh it's it's really Been an amazing run and obviously Continues continues to be so and I think One of the things that um when I coached You and obviously working with you even Behind the scenes you know from from an Analyst standpoint over the years um I I Always found like your intuition from a Coaching standpoint like you had you had An idea of what where you were trying to Go with it but you like to get input as To is there other directions I might be Able to go and I always thought that was A really great great style of getting Information from from your assistance And figuring out like okay I'm thinking This way is there another way that you Think maybe something should be done and Then you kind of take those pieces and Put it to back together with what you Think might be the best way to do it and Then you put it on field I I I thought That was really really a not just a Unique style because I've been around

You know a lot of guys like I coached With nyus and um but but it really was a A really interesting thought process of Getting all the information and then Figuring out what's works for you as a Coach and works for for for your team Right and I I I thought that was I Always found it to really really be Fascinating I I tell people all the time Like um I've coached with you know lucky I was with some great I've been an Assistant for Darren white I've been Assistant uh for you and I've been Assistant for DJ nyus those are the Three guys that I've been assistance for Obviously and um probably some of the Winningest coaches if you put all the Wins together definitely 100% yeah and And you take different things from each Guy but I always thought that was really Really uh interesting way of how you Pro And then you do it in such a calm manner Which is really like amazing and the Other thing I always say I take away From you and Derek knows this because I Was so fast fascinated by when I worked Your your camp in the summer and I've Worked a lot of camps I've ran you as You know thousands and thousands of Camps right and but I've also worked Different people's camps and you you did This thing with prizes at the end uh of Each day for kids like for numerous kids Like and I would say it wasn't just like

One kid like you you in all these other Camps you know you see a couple of kids Get a prize like you would have coaches Come to you with each guy and you might Have five you might have if you needed To whatever you needed to to to satisfy For the day right and and then you would Have it at the end as well and I said it Was it was the most amazing thing Because I would say the way the kids the Kids would light up and you give the Bro Hug it it was just an amazing amazing Way you do it and the kids kids loved it And and Derek could tell you I I Probably take it that to the extreme Like when I when I run my Camp every Summer the kids walk away and every Parent talks about how the kids uh love It because not not only is it a fun camp And they learn and all the things that You would expect them to do but they They're walking away with with gifts and And I said I said he's a genius it was Definitely have adopted that that's for Sure I said the man is a genius that's An absolute genius move and obviously It's genuine but but you you see you Know what it is you see how their faces Light up and then you also you would see You know if you did like one or two like So many other kids disappointed so you You know it becomes like hey let's let's Get as many kids that deserve a prize Each day getting a prize and then that

Way um you know more and more kids and Eventually you get around to each kid Basically has an opportunity if they do A good job you know uh to to to earn Something so I always thought that that Was fascinating and that has zero to do With with the X's and O's yeah um uh you Know and I think that that's part of Kind of your your coaching style from From my observation what what would you Say is like how do you approach Developing play because you've done such A great job you talked about how where You went from to got you know where you Are now um what has been your approach To developing players and helping them To really continue to Improve uh you know well the the the Camp part the the funny part about that Is like I always thought like if I look Back like I look back reflect back now I'm like I was probably meant more to be Like a like a fourth and fifth grade Teacher than a high school teacher like That week those kids is my favorite week Of the year you know like I love love Like eight nine 10 year olds they have Like tons of energy they can be Redirected so quick they have fun Whatever but so that's like a great week But the development part is it goes back To that like um you guys would remember Like uh years ago when I was growing up And then early years of coaching like uh

Before like the offseason stuff was so Intense as it is uh you'd be hardpressed To get like kids who were freshman and Sophomores into the weight room into the Offseason program showing up at like Whatever Captain's practices were Whatever like that was always a struggle You were always trying to pull those Guys in because they just weren't that Familiar with you know how we do things And that was I like I can remember my First couple years it's like hey we got To make sure so and so's in the wait Room or grab this guy at lunch and have That conversation to make sure he's Going or doing whatever that was always Tough yeah real tough and I remember That when I was an assistant and then Became a head coach getting the younger Guys in you always have your core guys Who are going to show up those are the Easy guys you don't have to yeah not That you don't have to coach them you Coach them but those are the easy guys To get to buy in it was always those Younger guys and I think as we've the Offseason programs have developed so Much younger guys are bigger part of it Younger guys play more earlier now than They you know bigger part of it so I Think that probably the biggest thing That we we've done over the years and uh Is um you don't wait till you think a Kid's going to important for you to

Start coaching them like you start Coaching them when they walk in the door Even before that at these camps and Everything else like you're coaching Before that developing relationships and The number of kids the thing I take a Lot of pride in mostly is the number of Kids that by the time their seniors Become productive High School football Players that when they walked in as Freshman they were they were aliens you Know like they would you know yes they Were they're like Bambi out there right They're all dainty they they're you know Their shoe size just changing every Other week mom's worried about like why Are these pants short I just want them Like yeah and not even able to get out Of their own way and and kids that you Wouldn't even presume to be an athlete And eventually end up helping you out And everybody's got those stories as Coaches we love those kids that that end Up being like that because they buy in But I think that's the biggest part of Developing them just start early make Sure they know my my favorite part of Practice is like coaching the Scout Offense you know like when you love it When you get to work with the younger Kids and and uh they see that you're Directly invested in them getting better And and coaching them hard in it you Know but also having fun with it too and

They see another part of your Personality as opposed always you know Hit hitting the other kids hard the Older kids hard they see you like Teasing them a little bit or you know I Would say I don't know if you want to Say like loosen up but they almost see You not have to always be that that Hammer that has to come down you know You can you could still be a hammer but Maybe now you're a rubber mallet right Or something you know what I mean like I Always thought that when head coaches And all the guys I've been fortunate Enough to work for great guys and you Know throughout my career going into my 15th season when head coaches get Involved other than just like on the OC On the DC pointing fingers like doing This or doing that when like those when Head coaches get down and do the scout Team or you know they they take a Special team and they kind of run with It you just see the kids play a Different way or or give a different I Don't know if it's the I don't know if Level of respect is is the right thing Because as a head coach you're always Respected it's just they see you more as Like a human right like you're not Always have to be that dictator that guy That's always like the only time you Talk to them is when something's going Wrong like that's not the way to do it

Especially now with the kids with the Way kids are now yeah they it's all Those things along the way that you just Let them see your real personality and If we didn't have a you know like you Have to you have like you learned early You got to be your own personality we All try and emulate certain things copy Things a copycat business we're all Looking for different ideas ways Techniques things to motivate kids and Get kids to get better and improve and And all that but uh at the end of the Day you have to realize early on you got To be your own personality be your own Person and you also realize some People's personality aren't cut out to Be football coaches or head football Coaches or whatever the case is just not Gonna work out you know I think that's a That's a great Point like some guys just You know you see guys that are are great Coordinators or they're great at what They do and all of a sudden now they go Into a role as a head coach and it's not As successful as they are some guys I Feel like you know just aren't meant to Be head coaches and you see it at the You see it in the NFL how many of these Guys go from coordinator to head coach Two three years later it's like maybe That's not right and then they resurrect Their career back being a coordinator And it's like you know sometimes guys

You really got to know yourself and I Love that you said that too because Ultimately like as a coach you have to Be who you are otherwise you're faking Something for three hours a day trying To you know be what you are and that Doesn't constitute success in any way Shape or form for anyone yeah it doesn't Work and yeah and and by the way it goes The other way too there are plenty of Guys who are head coaches that aren't Weren't very good coordinators or cut Out out to do that either it's just a Role that you kind of fit into whatever So it's not saying one's better than the Other whatever it's just different Personalities different mindsets and the Details and everything else that you're Kind of you know personality heads into Now you got to coach your personality That you also you got to work into that Like it shouldn't limit your Self-improvement you can't be complacent This is the way I do things or this is How I do it or this is whyever this is My system this is what we do and this is How you know you're trying to fit a what Is it you're trying to fit a a round Round peg into a square hole or whatever It is like you know what I mean like Sometimes you can't force Fe it and Dave Knows it because also you know the Program that you're in right where you Are especially being public school right

Like you need to know those types of Kids and how things work and and that Type of dynamic too I think goes into it A lot you need to know where you are and You need to understand your kids and Obviously you know it comes from the top And you've been fortunate enough to work With some great administrators that have Kind of allowed you to shape and mold Your program into what it is Today yeah good people uh mostly I've Had great assistant coaches and Everybody every coach who talks about That has great assistance whatever and And uh but I've had the same group of Guys and Dave knows these guys that are Tremendous and they're behind the scene Guys and uh we've been together a long Time and that that goes with Dave was Saying you can just kind of you can hear Everybody out at the end you got to go With what you're comfortable with what You're able to coach the kids to do like What you're you know in your mind you Can get across and get them to do uh but You have a lot of good voices and brains In the room and people who know the kids And and uh know what you're about also So I've been fortunate in that respect Yeah I think you do you do a wonderful Job of integrating all those different Things within the program I mean um You're first of all you have like you Said you have tremendous

Assistance um that that have really Worked with you but you do what you do Masterfully is mesh all those different Personalities right and and you know Joe Clouse is a big personality right the I Mean could you know could be A head coach if if he wanted to himself Um he's a big personality he's he's a Guy that um where am I am I losing my oh There we go uh you know and you have Other guys that are like that you got Guys who played you know a lot of guys That played in college and and you mesh All those personalities together to Really to really work so well um and I Think the way that you take care of the Guys is really unique and and and the Bing that you build and you let them go And and what you know uh Joe Joe said This to me when I when I came on board With you you know to run the Special Teams he's like once coach done trusts That you can do the job he'll let you Run with it and you know I I don't I I Can't remember which which game it was But it was it was one of the early games Maybe it was rampo where we we started Returning I think we returned a couple Of kicks for like 85 85 88 yards or Whatever it was and after that point I Remember I was like okay he's just like He's going to let me you know he's Letting me do what we want to what we Think might be best and it was real I I

Think it was really um a tribute to how You are like you're like hey once you Show me that you could do the job um uh And it doesn't matter who you are I was Obviously had coach before right show me That you could do the job and um you Know then then you can go ahead and do What you need to do and then you also Did a great job I always thought of Leveraging each person's knowledge Base yeah you know I don't know and I'm C ious about this but um you know Basketball obviously you had so much Success football you've had a lot of Success like what what are some of the Things that you felt like tie together From the two sports and and that you That you leverage you know in each one Of those Sports to help You I mean ba basketball basketball's Interesting Like the uh basketball is a lot easier To manage like you can walk into Practice a day after football ends or What whatever they're crazy years where We're crossing over and football's still Going with basketball start but you can Walk for you coach happens more than Other coaches just great problem you Know yeah yeah but you can walk in the Gym and you got a dozen basketballs and The Nets are down and you can have Practice and whatever and you have two Assisant coaches and and the kids show

Up and you're ready to go football There's so many more moving Parts um so Which is the only reason I've been able To do like do it like and I enjoy the Part of like getting away from football A little bit and like you know and uh Working and I love Hoops too so it's It's a lot of fun and what else do you Do in the winter at night like I mean Like right I be like going out of my Mind getting out of the waight room at 4:30 it's pitch black you know like what Do you do the rest of the day right so So uh but you know the the combination Too it's just it's the same as Everything's working with kids you know Like that's that's all it is at the end Of the day and like I said like I had Those early on C you know like like Crappy things that happened to Young Coaches whatever like between Administrators and parents or whatever And you realize like I was never going To be one of those guys who's like Trying to become a vice principal or a Principal or an athletic director I had No interest in dealing with adults like Right anytime I'm dealing with adults It's usually not good you Know no it's totally understandable Because the move always right if you Look historically the head football Coach became either the ad or a Principal or a vice principal or

Something of that that nature they went Into a job where or rather a career Where you know they were the leader they Now lead the school right and and I'm The same way coach like I had no Interest of leaving the classroom in any Way shape or form because you know Ultimately you get into this because you Want to have you know a positive effect On kids moving forward that was the Appeal for me it wasn't having to deal With you know parents or you know board Members or or that type of thing right Like that was if I had to okay but that Wasn't the role that I wanted to play in Any way it was I wanted to be you know On the front lines with the kids at Practice rolling balls out doing drill That type of thing so I totally Understand where you're coming from with That and with social media now the Involvement of parents and and and that Aspect and adults in general has just Increased because what they see is what They think the reality is and it just it Gets so intertwined right like you need To now manage that from you know the Leadership position and you know that Comes with the culture you build around Your program and you know outside Looking in like that's all that's Handled for you where now you can focus On you know the X's and O's of it the Football piece of it the part that you

Care about but that also comes with time Right like you've had to build that to a Point where this is the stand standard And it's kind of cliche line now right Like we go this is the standard is the Standard and that's what we work for Yeah there's no doubt you got like I Feel for all these young guys getting Into the business like it it's brutal Like it really is for young young Coaches to stay in it and to to get a Chance to be successful at it and to get A chance to learn enough to get get Through the rough patches like and it Was a years like probably 15 years ago Like I just decided like I'm I'm not GNA Give a crap about anything like you we We all work with how many thousands of Teenagers thousands you know every year I've got a new roster of 125 teenagers And another hundred I'm coaching or Whatever and uh for 20 for 33 years or Whatever you're doing just do the math There right like and then you are forced To sit down and there's nothing against Parents because some of my best friends Are parents of former players I've had Like I have great relationships with a Lot of people but then you're forced to Sit down and discuss like how to Approach certain things with somebody Who's you know dealt with two to three Teenagers their entire life you know What I mean like and and you're two to

3,00 you understand what the kids are About like and you're you're the you're The expert at it so a while back I Decided I'm the expert at this like I'll Do it my way whatever not that I don't Want to get better and take advice and Talk to people I do uh but you have to Be grounded in what you what you believe Is right and what you know is right I Mean that's it's the only way to get Through it and and most Mo for the most Part young kids coming into the Profession they don't get the leeway to Get through those tough years or they They don't even get the opportunities Right they don't get that part where you Struggle and grow it's like hey man you Went through you know your first year Like you say you went ow and you know You go ow and whatever all right well Maybe we'll give him another year next Year you go three and whatever and now All of a sudden like hey you're gone and It's like you know we always I always Say like you need at least that first Freshman class to get through to kind of Judge whether or not you're going in Right direction and you know Dave knows This better than better than most of us You know he's taking over programs that Were like really down and struggling and To build that stuff to build that stuff And then he does it takes care of Business and then it's like okay well

Something happens and now it's like You're gone like where is that and you See it all over right you see it at Every level of of football whether it's High school college football the pros Like guys just don't get that time to Really develop all of those things and Kind of be successful yeah yeah I mean Dave you might have you tell me if You've dealt with this before but like I Remember these first years like you know You you like you're told you have to sit Down and talk to like certain parents by The athletic director work this out work That out discuss it and I remember Sitting there I wasn't I was you know Like I said I'm always open to criticism And coaches by Nature most mostly Football coach are very defensive a lot Of times I get it ex and there's a Reason for it you know but we take a lot Of bullets like we do yeah and strong Willed guys and whatever so we Understand the type and the the but I I Consider myself like open to criticism And hearing whatever and ways to improve And and uh but I remember sitting down And it's like two separate meetings with Different dads and one was like the Booster club guy and the other was like Uh just a parent who had insight into His whose kid was a a legit recruit and You know so you're going to sit down and Talk and his insight about how we got to

Get better and what we got to do and uh Within like a year or two the the Booster guy like disappeared with $10,000 out of the account and just Disappeared you know and the other guy Was calling me for a job like he he Needed help like getting a job getting Like umpiring freshman baseball games or Something and I'm just like these are The freaking guys I had to sit there and Talk hours with and listen to their Input on what I'm you know you know what I mean Like was going on you know that's when I Realize like I'm I I know what I'm Talking about at this point like but Everybody's got to be able to get to That moment you know absolutely and Obviously I I've been head coach you've Been fortunate up to really uh be at for The most part one place right I've been At multiple places and you know and you Know my first one was at S Brook because I remember we did seven on seven with um You and nyus over Riverdale might have Been like your first few it was your First few years I think at at old and Yeah early 2000s that's when you had That y yeah so I had um I had uh like The first year it was a weird time Period where I took it over because Darren White had done such a great job Then he stepped down he basically there Was all kinds of politics and you know I

Can't do it justice he could probably Tell you exactly what was going on But there was all kinds of politics like Basically and he said I'm I'm done with This and and Ste down decided to just Coach softball which by the Way he's become the great you know maybe The greatest softball coach in Bergen County you know it is amazing but but uh So he stepped down and then um coach Lenary took it over um with uh some of The guys who were assistants under uh uh Darren white we were all together Originally and um he got fed up after Their first year and and he he just left And I think he's at St Joe's been there Forever and he was a fantastic line Coach John lener and um and so then I Came in so I kind of knew because I'm an Amam Mater there you know kind of knew You know what was going on but I didn't Know like the ins and the outs obviously My father's a teacher there runs a track Program so I uh I took it over and we Did I actually thought we we were doing Great like we went 2 and eight the first Year but we played tough you know we had A all sophomores stud sophomore class And I had a parent that was just Relentless pain in the butt just Relentless and then we uh the next year The kid didn't want to do the workouts In the summer with us now I was young Like when you took over I was 30 years

Old 31 and I my whole thing was like Hey Man like you got to be in the way if You're the quarterback you got to be in The w room like if you're you're one of The leaders of the team so I went kind Of a different route with with my guys And this kid was the played the year Before and their parents just were Relentless and they're they pulled me Into the office and they're like and This kid would send me texts and I these Kid should have been off the team you Know I tried to get off get rid of them They they wouldn't the administrators Wouldn't let me get rid of them and the Team was but all through this the team Was making prog we actually went five And five and we had the whole team back The next year I mean literally I had uh Uh I had this kid Justin maner who was Like 68 tight end Steve barness was my Steve bahes was the quarterback who went To play Ruckers you know I mean he ran For like 1300 yards from quarterback and And obviously you know as a guy who's Run your quarterback a lot you know you Know how valuable that could be right so Um so but they were just it was Relentless and I basically uh they came To me and they said listen you can um We're not g to let you coach winter Track with your father this year and Then they said you and you and you have To reapply for your job and you you

Probably get it but you and you I don't It's crazy they do this sometimes to Coaches with who you know you're gonna You know you're probably gonna get voted In but we want to let people talk about You just saw it in uh Brunswick right One of the Brunswick's just did it to a Guy so here's what I did I said I ain't Doing any of that [ __ ] I'm out of here So you know so we're we're we're there At our like uh banquet and no one really Knew that I was out of there like I Basically told told my father I told the Ad I'm out of there you know and uh they Uh I'm at the banquet and all the Parents they must have heard Whispers But they're like you're coming back Right you're because we had this great Group of kids coming back and I said you Know yeah we'll see we'll see we'll see I walked out that door I never set foot Ever in the the the uh sad High School Uh uh again so I've never set foot in That school again since and it it was an Interesting thing because we had all the Things and I always thought that at the Time you know I was a young coach that's Why you talk about it and even back then You know like when caselle BR you know Brought you in and talked to you like They brought me in read the riot act and They were basically like you gota you Got to work with this kid and I'm like I I'm not doing that like I'll go find

Another place to coach and that's when I Joined nyia his staff that year and we Won the state championship and um and That was a great team he had a lot of Great coaches on the staff there and and He did a great job and then um and then I went to Pal Park after and built that Up for you know from nothing but it was Um but it was so interesting how you Know the the ability for people like you Said who really don't know exactly What's going on with your team that Could actually um could actually ruin A good thing uh and that team should Have been there was no doubt in my mind That that team if if I had been able to Stay there it wasn't it was nothing Against the guy who took over after me Just he just didn't know the kids you Know and he only lasted one year himself Um and kind of a staple for Saddlebrook There's a lot of oneyear Wonders other Than Leo who was there forever Leo did a Great job Leo was my assistant he was I Brought him on like he was right out of College he was my assistant and I you Know I said you you stay on here you'll Be the head coach here because you're Probably the right guy he that well you Know what he was good at he was a he Wasn't a coordinator he wasn't like I Mean he coordinated stuff but he really That wasn't he's a manager he's a great Manager of that he was a great

Manager manage right like group one is Different like you have there's a lot of Moving pieces with group one and that Like you know I could never be that I I Could never be like when anytime I've Been a head coach I feel like it's high School like I got to coordinate a side Of the ball like I have to have my stamp In there I just more comfortable that Way you know as our you know I know you Are too um because because if I'm gonna Go under if I'm gonna go under Like it's you know in high school but I Always I always gave I always thought I Always told Leo this you know I said I Give you credit like you really CEO it And you know and he does the same thing With the Bergen County he does a great Job he he see Ed it and and did a Fantastic job for a long time until Someone got on his nerves there and he Decided he decided to move on himself But that that's a unique place but but You're right like I think that that's The hard thing for young coaches luckily I got a second opportunity and and it Worked out but um but not not a lot of Them do decide to take a second Opportunity in today's world I think It's just not worth it right like Financially if you're not a teacher and And even now you know teachers always Had second jobs right like that was part Of it because like you said coach in the

Summer it was Captain's practice I can't See you till August 1 right like weight Room stuff like the game has changed Maybe not the game well that game has Whole another conversation everything Around it has changed everything the You're you're you are now expected to Basically work for free that entire Winter spring summer cuz if you're not Doing what everybody else is doing in Terms of you know getting kids recruited Or you Know different like so Derek UL there's A few places that are I think are Different from that standpoint like when I was at Indian Hills um if we didn't Move like I I believe I'd still be there Because of the fact that um but we moved Down the shore you know at when when my Kid was um you know getting to be two Years old we had to get like get a house You know so it it became a thing where Um uh I think certain schools and I Don't know how exactly I'll but they do A good job like Indian Hills man they Gave me multiple stiping at Right especially for guys like like Coach coaches other sports right like Like that's they made it real stable for You you know if I wanted to coach Sports Other sports like Bara who is now your Ad right he was I thought he was Phenomenal with that like was that your Guy at Indian

Hills M mine yeah it's the same that has Now yeah Yeah because you loved him yeah I Thought he was great I I felt horrible When I took the rbr job because it it it Looked like because the team the team Was pretty decent and we were still Building and it looked like oh you know He jumped ship for like a better better Job but it was really it was really um We moved down here and it was 10 minutes From my house versus an hour and 20 Minute ride to go to Indian Hills you Know every day every day originally I Lived there but we moved so uh but Verata was was I thought was phenomenal He handled at least with me you know Obviously everybody's different with me He handled some of the issues that you Deal with with parents where you're Around in a in a wealthier community Like things you have to deal with um With that like like you know some of the Stuff you talked about he used to handle That so great for me like he was a Buffer when necessary and I'll tell you This he also if I was wrong on something He brought me in and he would be like Man like you're wrong on this this is Not this is like this is not an area That you need to go down you know go you Know bite the bullet go down a different Path I I respect that about him I we had That my first ad at rbr was exactly like

That um then then obviously um he Retired after the first year he was a Fantastic guy but he retired after the First year and then everything Everything changed because it was covid And it just it just became it was wild Yeah and I was I was definitely Derek Was with me so I was definitely not fond Of some of the um nonsense protocols That we had which made it probably uh Which which made it probably harder for Me personally because I thought some of The things uh were like you know you Know how they gave you rules in covid And then and then all of a sudden some People would decide there should be more Rules than the rules they already gave Us that that's what was going on at rbr And my ad was no longer there so it it Was just like I'm like you know we're in A fight every day about like you know Like all these different things and and I understood obviously how how how Serious co could be but there was like Hey man if we're gonna play football Where they're actually gonna hit each Other and breathe on each other and you Know be on top of each other and then The second we walk away like you know uh Uh trainers screaming at me like get Them separated I'm like we're Ling on Each other yeah then you come together In team huddle and everybody's got to be Messed or whatever yeah I mean it's

Whatever PODS of 10 it was a crazy time And and now you know if you saw the Olympics um the guy who won the hundred He actually got Co I thought it was so He got Co he's done he's home he left he Had to go home no no no he ran into 200 He was walking around I think he pulled Out of the uh relays just because he Wasn't feeling good anymore he really Wasn't feeling good but he he he was Walking around with a mask for a couple Days he had gotten Co right after the 100 I don't know when he actually got it But uh like he he felt terrible the next Day I saw the interview and they asked Him did you ever think of pulling out Now obviously a few years ago they would Have made you be gone they would have Forced you he said he said no he said I Was running that race no matter what And yeah he said I was running that race No matter what so he ran the race and Then obviously still wasn't feeling Great so he uh um Ian it be great to be So so tal so good at the uh sprinting That you can still get a bronze medal With Co I Guess that's you know your previous ad That passed away what was his name Tom Caselle yeah yeah my father my father Has some relationship where he knew him Or some way was he like a will was he a William Patterson guy or something maybe Tom was a Ruckers Newark guy he coached

Baseball at Ruckers Newark and then uh He was my baseball coach in high school Oh wow and then uh yeah and then he Became the ad he was the guy who hired Me as the football coach I was there Before him as an assistant but he uh was He have places was he like an ad Somewhere else or along the lines no he Was a he was a teacher at demr Middle School way back in the 80s and then um Went to Rucker Newark as the baseball Coach and he was like assistant ad there And then he came back and got the job at Alaan yeah so I don't know how it is and Dave knows my father he know know Everybody just like his dad they all Know everybody but he had some Relationship and always like would say Like like even when we played you in in 2017 right in the finals my old man was Like oh you know this I'm like all right Well you know like so he was like he Always just spoke volumes about him yeah Yeah he was a great guy and uh passed Too soon obviously but yeah it's Wonderful guy y for sure um you know When you you were originally a wing te Guy right yeah way back yep yep so I Thought what is fascinating about what You did and and I think and you I'll let You tell the story but when when Devon Fuller C came around right you kind of To the gun and and and and went more to That like spread win te which is similar

To what you're you're running now to uh To this day that was my first year Coaching to talk about talk about That for you like how did you come up Because really I mean to this day like You know I don't see a ton of guys marry It the way that you marry it you know That those Wing te Principles um uh with with the gun I Mean there are other places maybe around The country that do but as far as you Know in New Jersey talk about how that Evolution of that system when you when You and when you got Fuller and then how You continued to evolve that yeah I mean You guys know Wing T like you're not Really highlighting your quarterback all That much and and um Uh when he came in uh he was starting as A freshman at at that point he's like Any other freshman he's not ready to be Who he ended up being uh so we're still Kind of wing T based and under Center um And um and uh as he became a sophomore And you could see this kid's he's not Just a good kid who's gonna be like a Starter as a freshman whatever be a good High school football player he's next Level you know and he wasn't white there As a sophomore but you could see he's Getting and that's when we started you Know uh kind of merging some shotgun Concepts where the spread was becoming The whole big thing and everything you

Know everybody's running that so and Merging those Concepts a little bit but Um you also you know one of the things Is like are we gonna be in this fulltime And and uh that's what we're doing being A spread team are we gonna and the the Idea was let's stick to what we're good At up front uh and and the blocking Principles and everything else And uh how to how to manage the blocking Schemes and the rule-based stuff that The wing te is so good about and right And marry that into the backfield action Out of the shotgun and uh and and kind Of the concepts there so that's how it Kind of emerged and obviously having That kid do it makes you look a whole Lot better you know he's he was a stud Coach like I was my I think it was Either my first or second season at paic Valley and and I we had to go up and and I was fortunate enough to work with Billy Johnson who's just an absolute Phenomenal defensive coordinator and he Uh you know it was like you know hey Derek like you're a young coach like let Me explain to you how you prepare for a Kid that's this dynamic because he had You know he had coach when he was a head Coach there he coached against the you Know Greg Olen and all those guys and Stuff like that and then it was really Kind of a new type of offense to really Kind of defend you know not many people

Were doing that stuff with you know a Quarterback being such a big factor you Know not to mention that this kid could Literally you know do everything with it And was still like developing right it Was like all right we're GNA shut down The you know we're we're gonna shut him Down as a runner and then he just Dropped one over the top or hey and it Wasn't like he was the only guy like and That's another thing that I think you Have done like with your program like There's always a guy but there's other Guys around every time your teams are Successful like you can't just focus in On one guy because that guy's going to Kill you that guy's going to kill you I Think you do a great job of allowing Those other guys to become dudes right Like within the system whereas all of These kids now factor into it yes you Have a focal point of like hey that's The guy because every year you just turn Out a running back like it's like holy Hell like every time but it's also those Other guys that kind of factor into it And I feel like he was like you really Kind of opened to a lot of other teams Like hey this kid can do this but like You guys can do it with your guys as Well yeah yeah I think he was yeah Obviously a special player but um you Know it became uh the the whole the Whole I think the things that we were

Doing at the time like incorporating That jet motion out of like that was Huge that was so big running the counter Schemes off the jet motion and uh you Know some some and the the different Types of stuff like that I mean I Thought that was like you know it was it Was a big part of what we're doing and And we still use a lot of it today I Mean yeah I I use a version of it at uh With my son's uh youth team and and it's Funny because you listen we last year we Were running primarily jet because they Were basically they all had to be like At when they were eight they all had to Be in like they all had to be in the box Like everybody box you know but we we Were using it with like two wings and And um uh those guys it was great and um And so now they're now they're nine and You're allowed to play regular football So we kind kind of expanded for them and We you we literally were running uh the Buck sweep from gun and and um it's and I learned that from you because listen I Was like uh originally like a spread Zone re guy you know and all all those Kind of like with the mic leech Principles and um uh so I I learned that And it's it's amazing I told Derek this I Saidi have three my son's A quart is Is a quarterback I have two other Quarterback I have three quarterbacks on My roster that are

Like for their age unbelievable they're Different all different types I have to Figure out how to get all guys all the Guys time but they're they're Unbelievable unbelievable for nine years Old like my son could do both like he's Like a guy that can run and throw I have A guy that's like a more of a runner but Like he could he's adequate great runner Though and then I have another kid That's more of like a just like a a Gunslinger yeah it's amazing but those Principles like you know what's so great About it is that it makes you multiple Without having to teach a whole lot yeah For sure that was the thing that I that I like you know you're able to run the Qu you're you're able to run the Quarterback without changing a lot of Verbiage you're able to you know do a Lot of things from that standpoint and Derek the thing and I I want you to talk About this because I don't know if this Has always been because from my the wing Te I'm not sure which guy that would be Or the old Wing te but your utilization Of the sniffer is talks about this all The time I guess you would call it HB Back an HB back but uh but that that Sniffer agback is as as important as the QB and the running back are right those Are the those are kind of what most People know as the focal points it's That sniffer guy that that really gives

You he's a weapon because he can do Basically he's like your jack of all Trades he can block he does and he does All your dirty Ron yeah uh talk talk About how you started like how you Utilize evolved that part of of the game Was that there right away when you had Devin or you know so so that was you Know the old Wing T stuff with that we Used to do you know and the one thing About Wing T you had a right and left Halfback and then we got away from that Because you didn't have three good Running backs on your team you know two Half backs and a fullback obviously with You Know yeah so you always had one who was A better blocker one was a better Runner Whatever so you went to like one became The wing back one became the halfback You know out of your red and blue sets Or the Double Wing sets or whatever with The split um so so we had like a you Know depending on your personnel you Have like a wing back and then a Halfback one guy was and they would flip Sides instead of being like like rard Always did it very consistent they had a Right and a left halfback which I always Admire I'm like but but um and how guys And they would not tip off stuff as much But when you switch a guys you tip off Some plays so then uh as we got into More like all right let's take the the

The split side halfback and let's move Them out into a slot and now you've got That Wing sitting there and that's a Pain they has to defend like when you've Got the tight end wing on one side and Then set on the other yeah that single Width set we used to call it in college It was like Hey or like a nub tight end Like that's that's tough because now You're you're you're just talking about Matchups like you You know you got 130b corner or whatever Trying to tackle on a guy who's you know A better Runner and a bigger body yeah And like Dave said you run the buck Sweep out of that now to your fullback Whatever or your quarterback runs it out Of like counter motion whatever stab Fakes you know and you can run the buck Sweep and you they got to be sound on The one side or you just throw perimeter Screens on the other but then we started Taking the wing and moving them over Making it into a trip set and and and uh Kind of Crea some conflicts there and uh Now it's evolved where we try and put Like I don't know that we get we used to Get tight ends like good tight ends Because they like 62 210 215 who could And be another lineman in there and then Get out and catch a pass we haven't been Able to get those types of kids too much Like those uh kids who could really Those kids just aren't developed like

That coach like nobody nobody comes up Now saying I want to be a fullback I Want to be an HB right it's like hey I'm A wide out and even the tight end world Right like do I really want to be a Tight end and most you know sometimes Those guys are just like I'll flip to The other side of the ball right and I'll stay I'll stay that and you know You just don't you just don't see I Guess development I guess of like a like Hey dude you're gonna be this this is Going to be your role as an HB or or That position it's I don't know if guys Get developed because I don't know how Many people really utilize it right like I think you see it more now because Obviously you know Andy Reid and the Kansas City Chiefs or or you look at um You know San Francisco with Shan like Those guys use you know those athletic H-back whatever like in that role so I Think you see guys trying to but I just Don't think the position is like like High school guys don't they don't come Up saying hey I'm gonna be a fullback I'm gonna be an agback yeah well it's a Great position because phenomenal Position because you can put depending On what your type of kid you put there You put a like there's nobody has those Old school fullbacks with the neck rolls Anymore you have a but we have a lot of Those kids are not G to be your number

One running back but they're not quite a Tight end either or a fullback but they Can be like a catch a pass and then you Put them in there and and mix him in he Can run some routes and he'll physical Enough to get in and block somebody and And he catch a screen here or there you Know what I mean like do some of that Stuff like I always thought it was like I always thought it would be the Greatest position ever right like dude You're telling me I get to down block or I get to pull and hit somebody and then I get to go catch a pass and do this and Then maybe I even get a play off like You know what like it's a great position To do you can kind of have a longer Career but I think guys are not as in Innovative with what you've done with it And Dave and I talk about it like we Always have like even from a defensive Perspective damn man like hey Personnel Wise like hey hey you know he's on the Field here like now we got to figure out Where's he going what's he doing this it Just it allows you to be so multiple Without having a pull guys off or really Kind of even show IT personnel wise yeah And you you can put a kid in there who's Not a killer who can now like because of Your rpos and everything else he's never Really blocking a defensive end or Anything else like you're reading guys a Lot he's arcing out to blocking the

Alley whatever so then they get that you Could put a quick little kid up in the Seam on that it's a tough matchup it's Pain in the ass yeah it's it's uh it's Really really an interesting position How he's able to utilize him into Blocking and the passing game he's he's Really lethal because um well they Forget about him you know so also he's Probably more athletic than the guy That's trying to cover his ass right Like you know what I'm saying like he Probably can run around better than the Linebacker or or what are you GNA put on Him now you know what I mean like now we See defenses all over the place with the Tweeners The Rovers The you know what I Mean like this guy can play DN but he Can take his hand up and play linebacker Or he can come down and play safety but He can't do that like it creates a Matchup problem it's always a conflict Def Defender over him who's a guy who's Got to S stick his nose in the box or End up trying to carry him vertical I Mean it's a p pain in the neck I mean Yeah yeah and a lot of guys don't know How to handle it like and now you're say You're sitting there and you're spending The whole week trying to how def you Know what do I got to do how do I defend This and then it's like all right we Just flip it and go somewhere else and Yeah you know now you just wasted your

Entire week prepare for something that You saw four plays out of yeah yeah for Sure no doubt about it no it's it's H You've done a great job with that um We've used the Dave we've used it Everywhere we've been and utilized it Like to an utmost you know what I mean Like I mean hell got it from coach D I Didn't I didn't invent anything I I I I Definitely didn't inv that's what it is This is where look copycat people that Worked for him guys I uh without without Giving away the play names I right down To the name of the plays I basically uh Uh uh uh uh took took it and was like Okay that's definitely going in Definitely definitely definitely going In I listen I was running um at the end I was actually running the B like I was Never a bu I was actually running Buck Sweep with my guys because I was like You know what like I had those kind of Kids and uh um I'm I'm GNA run Buck Sweep I had a quarterback that was a Load you know so he would run he would Run it run it for him you know and um uh It yeah I mean I I think that that's the The cool thing about um from what I've Noticed from what you run and the um and A lot of guys that I don't know if a lot Of guys are doing it like this but like I I saw you do and I just it just Clicked to me is the fact that that Blocking scheme can work for the the uh

The fullback and the quarterback equally And it gives you you know you get a Natural counter without without having To like you know um you the the old days We like we would you know okay this was Con power this is power this this is ISO This is you're you're running those but Without the kids having to really think About each different thing as a a a new Blocking scheme that was always the Hardest part about that was the thing I Thought was so great about the wing te Is just like hey man I'm just exchanging The guy that's carrying the ball you Know like this guy's carrying the ball Versus this guy and we're doing a fake Off of it and and you know what you're Gonna have to respect this guy because He's so he's such a good runner my you Know my fullback such a good runner and Um and uh you know or my quarterback's a Really good runner and you're you're Those guys are always carrying out fakes When they're not having the ball so you Have to split your defense basically Unless you really are that good at Reading and most high school kids are Not great at reading you know most Lineback most linebackers are SE ball Get ball right in high school and you Know the better programs teach it Obviously a lot better than that they Teach the reads well but for a lot of High School coaches that's a hard thing

For them to do and and either they don't Have the experience with it with they Don't have a guy that can teach Linebackers from that standpoint and you Really take advantage of that because You get linebackers going in all Different direction just like the Original Wing T did and you get guys Going in different directions and now Instead of having three linebackers run The ball maybe you only have one or or Two running the ball and we could block Those guys and now we have a chance for A good play each time I think that That's such a and and that was the Learning part of um the win te I wonder If you um like do you do you go to like Any any clinics to try and continue to Evolve that like the system that you're Running over time or yeah always when There's stuff relevant you want to keep Up and and follow up on things and see What the new developments are I think The biggest thing is uh it's offensive Football is offensive football at the End of the day like the wing te stuff That we do did did and now keep doing We've just meshed it with like a lot of Spread Concepts still the the concept Still like you're looking for angles You're looking for blocking angles You're looking for number advantages and You're looking for grass like that's That's it's still the same thing so we

Just kind of taken those spread Concepts And put it into like Wing te ideas you Know what I mean so so yeah you always Rpos are phenomenal the rpos you run Yeah yeah th those are always great to Keep up on those are fun to run I mean And especially with a guy like Fuller Yeah yeah yeah yeah and but we we Actually last few guys have been great With it yeah or his brother right like He did his brother was just as freaking Good like the two of them were studs but Then you know I look at Ma Ernie might Have been the best of all right m m and Ernie like I remember I was there when Mck and Ernie was the backup right I Remember you saying Bali was Bali yeah Bali was the queue who who could slang It who could slang it but mcer was like Really really smart like and really fast But he wasn't there quite there yet yeah You I remember I remember you would Press balali with madery because he was Knew he was gonna be really good but Like and then then all of a sudden when He became the guy oh my God yeah I Remember this we were it was like Pre-season or something and I was Unloading it's funny I was watching Something with Nick sa when you're Talking about like f he was just talking About how he coaches quarterbacks and He's like yeah yeah yeah it was on it Was on um the new Hard Knocks he

Was I thought it was incredible that guy Played for him the new head coach of the Bears played for sain when sain was at Toledo yeah yeah yeah I guess I saw that Relationship it was I think that stuff I Love that stuff not to interrupt you Coach but yeah that's where it was Because he went on this whole thing About he said like I always stood behind The quarterbacks right I wanted to hear What they're like they're talking to the OC like what do you see all that kind of Stuff yeah coach good yeah I I heard all The same stuff but the thing that that Pissed me off is he's like he's like I Never criticize a quarterback in front Of the team or whatever and I'm like Screw that like you like that dude's got To know he's accountable just like Everybody else you know like I don't Want a primadonna back there I don't Want a kid who thinks like he's he's uh On on a different level and I want a kid Who can handle like getting his ass Ripped and then when the heat comes in a Game all the other kids know he's been Through it he can handle it he's had it Tougher than this whatever so so it's Just different ways that personality Again your own personality how you coach It but I remember Dave saying well I was In one of those TI raes like ripping Through like one two three quarterbacks And McNerney comes it might have been a

Seven on seven and McNerney comes and Throws a couple and Dave goes that's Gonna be your guy right There and Dave wasn't wrong the kid had A senior year where he threw like 24 Touchdowns and zero interceptions and he He's smart but he says to this day Because I still see him like he lives Around the corner for me so he's and He'll come to practices and he comes and Throws a little bit for the young kids Whatever after he gets off work he's a Great kid but he goes I don't know if I Was smart he goes I just did exactly What you said and that was it I said all Right I'm that good man you just gota Listen and he tells the kids just listen To coach like it'll be open just listen You know that's True it was funny because balali was Like an improviser like he like he he Would he would like buy time I you see It now like actually it's kind of in Vogue now right with Mahomes yeah yeah Yeah and USC like those guys all by time But he used to I remember used to drive Us all nuts I'm like oh my God he's Running around back there and then all Of a sudden he like fired like the game Against Sparta he happened to have like Oh my gosh greatest game I mean at the Right time to have the greatest game of His life yeah you know uh he had an Unbelievable threw for like I think 300

Yards or something yeah and we came back To beat Sparta but it was it it it was Amaz because they were the team that Really was like oh the gunslinging team And we out gunsling them that day Because B Frank throws it around like Crazy he he was on fire I mean he was on But but I remember like I was like you Know minery like you're you're right Like you would tell him to do things and This kid would just do it and even Though he was not quite there yet Because he wasn't big he wasn't he's Still young yeah he's a late bloomer Yeah he he wasn't that big but um I I'll Tell you the one other fight thing which You don't know uh when you w when we won The the um a couple years we won the State group championship at Ruckers yeah And uh so I come out of there and I'm Walking up the the you know to the to The parking lot where I park and I'm Walking up there and um uh all of a Sudden I see all of those guys I don't Know if when you got to the park a lot They were still there or not because I Left earlier than you did and and and These guys were all and they just B just Like jumped on top of me and and I said They said I didn't know that you were You I said listen I was only at this Game I was not a part like I just helped Behind the scenes a little bit you know But um but uh they were like they were

So excited I thought that that was to me I was like you know what like that's What old toan football is those guys Wanted to come and and see what your Program was doing you know down the line They stay connected to it I think that That's like the the greatest thing that I mean of all the things that you've Done is wins and losses and and how many Kids you send to college like that those Alumni they w i w I won't say what Beverages they might have been drinking But those those alumni were coming back Back and they wanted to see the I mean And literally they as excited obviously As you were they were so excited they Just wanted to see see guys they knew Because they wanted you know to talk About it and it was um and they're funny Those kids because they're like coach You remember me I'm like you know I Always find it funny when players think Like you won't remember them you know Yeah like what do they think we do we Just like ET a sketch it and they're Like gone like every one of the I can Remember kids from you know what I mean And and I always like that like that's What that's you know when you get that Email or you get that text or or Whatever message through social media Where it's a kid you've coached like 10 Years ago and he's like coach I just you Know you know I'm a State Trooper now

And I just want to thank you you know Whatever or I'm having a baby and you Know I was or just the random ones right Like coach remember the day that you Said or you did this and you took the Kid's helmet and you took all the stuff Out of it and you were like fix it cuz You got to know how to know how to do Your helmet or something like that's Like that's the uh like the reward from Coaching that people don't understand Right like that's like why do you do That why do you spend so much time with These kids why do you you know what I Mean and and it's like that's why Because now like you know you look at it And it's like dude I remember when like You couldn't even walk right like you Couldn't Che gum and walk and then you Know now you're like A a positive member of society right and It's like you know coach you had Something to do with that that's just a Great like I love that that's my Favorite part of this whole thing it's The best and that's why I continue to do What I do right and especially for you Coach where you've been at the same You've been in the same spot for a Really long time like yeah you get to Kind of see the whole like I'm sure You're like maybe at a level now where You're coaching kids of kids you coached Right or something of that nature like

That's a big eye opener like oh my Goodness like that's wild I've been Blessed I live a mile from the school And like I said my kids went there grew Up there like I've been blessed it's Great place but you get those you get Those messages the funny part funniest Part about this and you guys would know This like when the kids come back and Tell you stories of stuff you did and It's like such a huge thing for them for You was like hway line at some point you Know like you didn't even you know kids Remember those things like coach coach Remember the day I didn't have sneakers Cuz we were and we were going inside and And you lent me your sneakers like I'll Never forget that and I'm like I lent You my sneakers you know what I mean It's like something that you yeah yeah Or like hey coach you told me I should Do this and and I did it right like you Told me to break up with her and I did Best move in my life like you know the Crazy there's so many of those that you Just like and they'll and you'll kind of Vaguely remember that kind of stick to Kids and it's good to hear those things Because then you remember the words Matter like you know you know they Matter and then and that's a huge part Of everything we do do like it's more Important than any of the X and O's and The footballs like the words matter what

You say and how you say it and how you Make them feel especially in this world Right I think your kids you know one of The biggest tributes too is your kids Have taken on a a piece of your Personality you know like yeah they are Man like they and the really good Coaches that's that's what I've seen Like your your kids take on a piece of Your personality like I you know um H What was good B different like when I Was there the the fullback you had the The fullback who uh who was great he was I think he went to Lafayette um Slater Slater so Slater so uh and Slater was a Great player actually when we lost to DJ That that was most heartbreaking thing Of the whole thing was he was a Phenomenal player that was such a Heartbreak I felt heartbreak not because We lost as much I mean obvious but I Felt it for him because he was so Phenomenal like like he was such a Phenomenal player and and and I was like Oh man such a phenomenal player like he Knew he was scoring to touchdown that Was again and and yeah he would never Ever ever ever that would never happen 999 times out of a thousand and happen But but uh but yeah so he would I Thought he was one of those guys that Would he took on like your per piece of Your personality how he um you know when I was because I was coaching the running

Backs and he he would just he would just Give me just give me like certain looks And stuff I'm like I'm like do you hang Out with Coach dun like H why are you g Like when he gives me that look he's the Head coach okay why are you giving that Like will you just go in and just block The guy you're supposed to block you Know for God's sakes but he you know and I was like oh wow like you know kids Take on and and it was good thing like He was a determined competitor obviously That you know he's one of those kids That's gonna be just a he already is Probably great you know great Citizen very successful in everything he Does but um he went up and finished his Fifth year at Ruck at Syracuse oh he did I didn't know that yeah and he played Some special teams for him yeah yeah Yeah and and that uh that Co year so he Went up and finished up there and and Smart went to the communication school He's doing like he does all uh like uh He has his own like Nets podcast and he Does like uh a lot of stuff involved With that and he's big like NBA stuff so He's oh really he was he was he was he Was you have so many smart kids and and And I'll tell you this the one of the Things that you've also done a really Great job of um like and I coached it to When I was at Pal Park Leonia we had a Large Korean population and I was able

To get I was able to get some of the Guys out and just like you have but There was a large percentage of them That never played football you know and Just it wasn't their culture right so You know people were like oh you're a Group three school cuz we're combined And I was like well the one school like I really have you know um about half the School or maybe even less a third of School to choose from other than a few Of the kids that I see walking the Halles that are big that I could Convince their parents it wasn't really Them because they they would be like oh I'll try it but the parents had a thing With education and what they wanted them To do and they were very good students And you know they didn't want to let Usually was the bigger I would get Lyman Out it would when when I was you know That's the other thing that's really Really amazing people don't realize that About ultan that there are some kids That just culturally will will will Never play football so you're you're Actually working with less of a Population boys wise to choose from even Though you I'm sure you get you know you Have over the years gotten some kids um To to come out but it's that's uh that's An amazing I I used to have like I would Be like I'd see kids in the hallways That someone would tell me oh this kid

Jumps pretty well and and he played you Know I can't a lot of the kids that were Korean played basketball and stuff I Like listen you're a great basketball Player you gotta come out like you gotta Come out and they and they' like I just Play basketball coach I just play Basketball yeah yeah yeah demographics Are interesting everybody deals with it Though Public Schools everybody's got Some kind of issue whatever that that we Don't uh we always have like mid 4S 10th 11 12th grade mid 40s it's like always The same number never varies at all no Matter how many games you win lose Whatever whatever the thing is it's like Oh always that number it has been for 20 Years I don't know what the deal is but We'd like to have more kids but the kids We have they it I I like I like the mid 40s number because every kid's getting Coached like every day right you know What I mean and uh all them end up by The end can are functional it's football Players you know 100% And and you're Group three right coach yeah yeah yeah And are you like big group three small Group three in the middle right in the Middle and you've been group three for a While now we were group four a couple Years back back in 2015 we were group Four right because when I played you in 2017 in the finals you were a four oh That was four yeah yeah yeah but before

That when I was playing you when I was Coaching at pic Valley I believe you Were you were a three because I was There oh hell my first couple years so That was 200920 yeah yeah yeah we're going back Yeah that because those were like you Know the original Fuller years or Whatnot yeah and listen and every year You know it kind of changes in the Demographics and the things of that Nature you know you're a three you're a Four you're a you know you're a five to A four I mean look if you go Historically like when I was growing up I went to Butler High School right but Vernon was one of the biggest schools in The state yeah now you look at them and They're uh you know barely a group two It's just the demographics have changed You know I don't know about like Bergen County has kind of stayed a little bit When you like but when you get down to Like you know lower end Bergen County Like the saddle Brooks and the things of That nature like those guys were just Hoping to get 30 you know and then we Just go from there so you've been Fortunate to you know listen you might Have 40 but it's a solid 40 Right those guys can all play what what About do you do you have you your Brother's the head track coach I I'm Assuming he still the head track coach

Right um um and you know obviously you You coach girls basketball talk about Like the multiple Sports thing with Within your school is is that is that Something that a l of your kids are Playing or do you have a mix of that how How was that um yeah that's interesting So I'm a big fan of obviously playing Sports and competing you know like Whatever small s you know like listen Weight room training is what it is like You can get your I tell the kids in in The winter in the spring you got to put Three hours three hours four hours a Week into football is literally what it Is you can do more uh but you can't do Too much more I mean at the end of the Day like how much are you training like And if you can't play another Sport and Find three hours to to train with the Team or set up a program where you can I Mean then then you're cheating yourself Like go out and compete like do Something you you need kids to be Coached by different people you need Them to make different set of friends Hang out with different people use Different parts of their body different Whatever um but you know we all want it To play like you know I want to be doing Stuff I don't want to be sitting around Like you know training is one part but Like you know so so we push them all to Compete

Um sometimes kids give up like the the One thing we've had is kids will come Out a lot into come in as freshman and Think like they're coming in as they're Gonna be a basketball player like you Were talking about and they come out for Football and realize like after two Years like you know I'm 510 and I'm I'm An okay High School football player but I could be a great a high school Basketball player but I could be I'm Playing really well as a corner or Really well as like a safety and I I'm Pretty good slot receiver whatever and Uh you know and and kids all a sudden Will develop and push more towards Football but um our kids are big on like Almost all our kids are doing at least Tracking football wrestling we get a Fair a fair amount of kids wrestling a Couple basketball players um couple Baseball players you know and that's That's pretty much how it goes there not Too many of our kids are just single Sport guys yeah that's what I figured um How about how about recruiting so has Ddy changed for you with um you know With your players OB obviously you've Had a lot of kids like most recently Obviously the big lineman going going to Duke and but over the years you've had a Lot of kids go places um has recruiting Changed with coaches visiting for you or Is it stayed the same like what what's

Kind of gone on because the transfer Portal has been a big thing with the These guys going back I and every coach Has kind of told us something different Like if they've been affected or not Like what what what have you seen from a Recruiting standpoint so listen over Over 25 years now 24 going into 25 years I've been fortunate and that I've had Like I've had everything from like a top Three couple top 300 kids in the country You know down multiple many division 3 Kids and everything in between ivy League kids FCS kids uh Kids that aren't aren't you know star Kids but they're power five scholarship Kids you know like uh so I've had I've Had the whole gamit I've had a a kicker Going like a kicker going to Nebraska It's a whole different side of Recruiting that you not really don't see Too much of so uh I've seen a lot of Yeah yeah I've seen a lot of it and um It's defin you know during covid was Interesting because the all the in School visits stopped and um like Completely shut down for like almost two Years and then uh it's started to get Back but now Al like the uh the younger Guys who recruit now like the younger Coaches and whatever they do it Different like it doesn't matter what Level like you know FCS or or uh Power Four I guess it is now not power five

Power four but FCS power four um and uh All the way down division three younger Guys do it different like I had a couple Kids like Al some good players whatever Came in and told me they committed to ex School XYZ I'm like I never even saw the Coach spoke to him like nah we all dm'd And whatever and and uh you know I went Up and visited and um college coaches For the most part will tell you they do Heavy work into like you know looking Into their character and their Schoolwork and whatever I've had kids Get offers and nobody's even spoken to Me or whatever and uh like legit Committable off you know right right you Know and um we've been cut out of the Mix yeah and but then all the the guys Who last and the guys who stick around And the guys that you have relationships With over many years th those are the Guys who do their homework um and aren't Doing it based on some cookie cutter Formula or whatever but um you know they Still have to match up to what they're Looking for but but uh yeah it's Definitely changed I mean I don't I Could tell you a million stories about Different guys and whatever and the Approaches they take but uh so Some some great guys out there and then Some guys who are like a little you know Yeah but those are the guys that you see They like every time they come in

They're wearing a different color hat Right like it's like that kind of stuff Too you look at it like that you know a Younger coach trying to you know put Progress his career in terms of like Whatever but then you're gonna have your Staple guys that like you know hey old Tan is a place I'm gonna hit when I'm in The road nor Jersey like that's an Automatic I have to go there because Whether he has a guy for me or not I'm Going there because that relationship Has been built I think that's one of the Things that social media has kind of cut The head coach out of it because back in The day that was your way to contact or Talk to the kid now these guys just Don't go and they go directly right to You know the kid himself or Mom and Dad Or and it's like at the end of the day It's like hey I committed and you're Like I didn't even have a conversation Like that's okay and that's just how Some guys conduct business yeah and that That doesn't I don't get insulted by it I thing I worry about is like for the Kids uh you the kids have to answer the Most basic fundamental question at the Beginning of all this recruiting is like Uh do do you love football or do you Love being a high school football player Because there's a big difference and Being a high school football player is Fantastic it's great like it's a lot of

Fun it's a lot of like things going on With it it becomes part of your persona Who you are and your social life and Everything else uh and a lot of kids Love that and then they say well I you I Want to play football in college but It's only these colleges I want to play At or only I'm like then you don't want To play like that's right not g to work It's you know so so you always have to Ask that question first and then that's A great Point yeah and yeah if you're Not passionate about it like believe me Like you know Dave played a division one Level I played a division three level Like at least he got money for school me I'm paying my own way to basically get The [ __ ] beat out of me you know and Spend all this time like you're playing For the Love of the Game if you don't Love that you ain't going to make it at Any level dude you know and sometimes I Think like you said coach these kids Like the idea Of oh we lost them well I think I think I think the um I think the thing that Really Becomes um important with it all is if You go when you go to college and this Is the thing that I like I've always Told kids this I'm sure you tell them it Like it is not like you're not having a Conversation that you're going to have With your your high school coach about

Some of the things that you have a Conversation with him about like and D D3 you may be able to have a little bit More than maybe you do at the higher Levels but when you start to go high Like I love when guys say they want to Go to Power for or even FCS and I'm like Listen these are high especially the Position and above coaches highly Compensated individuals this is their Full-time job this is that they're not Seeing you in a classroom where they Might get to know you you know where Where you're uh you know how you're a Little more about your personality some Coaches do some coaches don't but the Biggest thing is That you have to love it because you're Going to work and you're going to be Judged solely on your performance not Not where you can be potentially yes There are some coaches that will look at That you know but where you are right Now and where where you're going like Are you moving in the direction that They need you to move to as a player and With nil and well not nil as much but Transfer portal that's that's a bit That's been forced upon them even more And I I feel like the culture of the the Newer coaches are like like kill or be Killed in a sense like it's not I don't Know when I when I was now luckily Obviously I I haven't coached High

School since Co right I've I've helped You you know helped you out behind the Scenes but like I haven't coached since Covid on the field so I don't really Know the ins and out other than talking To you guys the ins and outs of of how Things have changed I talk to a lot of College coaches because of what I do but I don't talk you know I'm not dealing With it from a High School coaches Standpoint but it that I think that's The biggest thing because even the young Coaches that I talk to they either don't Have any real power and they're forced To to kind of evaluate guys and just Push it forward or they're in transition Constantly like I'm at this job now and More than likely I'm going to be at a New job next year and whether this Kid comes with me or doesn't come with Me like it's kind of I don't want to say It's irelevant because it's not because They are judged on how well they bring In recruits but you know if they know They're moving on from year to year that That changes the relationships you have With coaches in the area the one thing I Heard from I don't remember who it was We had on but there's no longer it might Have been the Iona Prep coach who said It there's no longer the area coach that No matter where he coaches at like you Know I used to use Scott lacitos as my Example like Asian uniforms but it was

Still Scott lacitos in in New Jersey Right like Scott Dave I'm with uh Yukon Now I'm with rock I'm with George you Know but he was still coming to the same Area right but you probably don't even See Scott lacos anymore right so um I I Wonder if that's changed some of it you Used to have those relationship with the Area coaches and those were kind of your Your guys yeah the the the two things That come to the front on that that I've Experienced is the first part is uh the Guy the like we've had we had like a a a Kid go to Duke a lineman um the number Of guys who came in to recruit who knew They weren't going to offer them but now We're stopping in to develop like a Relationship knowing that they might out Of the portal in a year or two or three And wherever they may be they want a Relationship with the kid you know I've Seen that a lot too coach like you know Guys kind of looking down the road right Yeah so the kids going to Duke he had an Offer from Syracuse Duke uh one or two Two or three other ACC schools but every School in the country like every school Stopped in to see the kid F and they Knew they weren't offering Them or they knew they weren't gonna get Them right or something Texas came in Twice to to talk to really yeah and they Weren't gonna they knew they weren't Gonna offer him but they knew like he's

Also a kid who could the kid 68 300 Pounds could develop into an NFL lineman And uh maybe we pick him up after two Three years you know so the teams that Are out there that know they they can Pay people to get them to move them over They came in to visit you know that was The one uh part that's totally different Um yeah because that would they wouldn't Even have wasted their time right in the Past yeah they yeah they wouldn't come In they're not wasting their time they'd Be like he can never play for us and They'd move on you know that's Interesting I didn't know that yeah yeah What's the other what was the other Thing you said the other thing is like You were saying there's never a guy There's not like those those guys who Are assigned to your area as much or Whatever the guys are in so they so and I'm not criticizing anything but the the They're they have more of a casual Relationship with the truth and dealing With you or mostly with the kid not with You necessarily so you're left to clean Up messes after they come in stop stop Responding to the kid Like have the whole time like come in Visit the kid tell the kid he's got to Go to Camp which I don't think in 25 Years I've ever ever had a kid go to a School that he went to Camp to like you Know like for it you know and uh and uh

They go to camp and they say yeah you're On our board you're on our board and Then they just stop stop messaging the Kid when they realize the kid's a Division three player going to like a FCS camp or something like that and There are other schools there so there's Still some productivity out of the camp But and then the kids Co kid comes to You and says coach they're not answering Me they're talking I said yeah that's The hard way to learn like they're not Interested anymore it is what it is Their positions filled doesn't mean Anything for you but you don't I don't My thing is I don't I never want to be The guy who tells the kid you can't Dream and go do this right you know and Be be the guy like U but I'll also be Honest where they're going to be Recruited like you you might have a Dream to go to this school and uh They're not going to make it easy for You you know what I mean like that's That's a great I I your point about the The camps because we I I'm Always I'm always baffled by this I Guess intrigued by it at the same time But the invite to Camp where guys will Flat out tell you if you come to Camp You're GNA have a and how many of them Have actually gotten offered I would say Is below 10% okay because I feel like I Feel like if they thought you were that

Good and I'm not talking about division Three really you know division three Yeah I get I get it I and maybe even the Iys I don't know but that might be Changing but but division 3 definitely Like you know there's not gonna be that Many kids at that camp anyway and yeah Probably is a good opportunity there Might be 80 kids there right so um but The higher levels I I think that that's Been I would if you were to ask your Parents that would probably they would Probably say that's the most frustrating Thing for them as a parent and then Obviously the kid is that they're told They're on the board like like I I've Always told kids like press them if You're going to go to their Camp press Him where on the board are you like are You on the board like you know like near The top where you know but if you could Tell by how they answer your question It's kind of it's a tough thing for kids To learn and parents to to to learn but Like if a guy hems and HW a little bit With where you are on the board you Probably know that unless you you you Know maybe you're a track guy that can Run a 4440 unless you're that guy or or The like the Duke kid from duke who is Gonna walk in at 68 and and even him by The way because I remember this process With him how it was like what's going on Here right you know obviously it worked

Out great for him but for a long time I Know I know you guys were like what's Going on because I remember I remember Joe even asking me like you know we We're frustrated with it a little bit You know so um but but yeah that that Whole thing about um where to go because You can only choose so many places right Because you still have responsibilities With your team so I mean let's say you Went if you went to five that's a lot Like that's that's a full summer so most Kids probably could do maybe three and If you choose the wrong three that's Really like you you could put yourself In a bad situ is yeah is that something That's hard like like when you have to Advise them it's almost hard to even Advise on it right do they even ask for Your advice yeah it's really hard Because that the kids usually do ask for Advice they want to know because mostly Because there's going to be conflicts Between what you're doing with them and What they and they want to be Accountable and responsible and say Coach this is coach I'm gonna Mis Practice because I'm right yeah and uh my response is Always like if it's a place that you're Dying to go to like that's your dream School and that's the only way you're They're G you're going to get on their Radar then go ahead and give it a shot

You know like but uh the other crap like Like we had we have a kid going to Liu Receiver he fantastic the kid's a great Player he's six three and a half 6'4 a Huge wingspan enormous hands yeah Stud like a stud and he can play safety Can whatever and he's athletic as hell Yeah and like a freak in the red zone Like an absolute freak so can catch Anything one-handed whatever he won the Game against C he do it all exactly he's Junior year yeah so kid's a freak and uh Wonderful kid loves football one of his Kids practices with a smile on his face All the time always playing horror and So you don't have enough nice things to Say to him and and uh a really reputable Like like every FCS school is like yeah We need him to come to camp and some of These guys I'm telling like all right But like I I know he's better than pretty much Every receiver you got already like I Know that you know he's gonna come well We need to see him run I said he's gonna Go run like a 485 that's it and it's not Going to be any higher it might be low Might be 49 right and they said Ah That's good enough for us whatever we Just got to see it and then everybody Tell him like one the guys came in and Said he's our number one guy um you know They came in Winter you've got to get This grade up this is the one thing if

You get this grade to this point we're Offering you in June junior year Whatever and he does it gets it and he Never hears back from again he's their Number one guy on their list you know Like so the crap that you hear like and You're just and this a kid he went to Every Camp because everybody says we Gotta see you run you know and all the Guys I tell him before he goes he's Gonna run 49 it's it is what it is if he Was run 46 he wouldn't be going to the Camp at Lehigh or Lafayette you know Like it doesn't so so like I said like We get to Point we've seen those types Of players like time players and you Know where the kids can kind of slot I'm Not going to talk anybody into like Taking one of my kids because if you Don't like them you don't like them That's fine and we'll move on for Something better and I'm not talking Them into so I don't over push kids but There also comes a point like you know What level your kids can play at Sometimes your kids are a little Unrealistic and they think I've had Great players go to like good division Three school it still takes them a year Or two to get on the field you know like They're not walking right out you know And everybody's kind of surprised by That sometimes but I that was you know And that's a phenomenal example because

To like when he made that catch okay Like it and you know you see this in States like Florida or Texas or and and Maybe those are I think part of it is That National recruiting has become a Bigger thing even for these schools in Like the Patriot League yeah sure they Can so they go they go and say like okay This kid made this catch he's a great Player like he's a no no doubt a great Player I saw this kid down in Florida Maybe I maybe I can get him too and he Runs a 465 and he he won't go to Florida Because there's not enough scholarship There and I I think that could be part Of it I I'm not 100% certain but I think That that's like my guess that some of Those things but um but I but I thought Like when you made that catch like those Are like there are certain things that You see someone do like his Interceptions that I that I've seen you Know like there are certain things that People do that you say That's that's a division one player Scholarship player like as soon as they Do that I say okay like he could do Things that nobody else can do and I Think that's the thing in recruiting for For me that has become the hardest like With people that I work with and advis And stuff like like we work with a kid In a quarterback in Texas that threw for Like I mean it's ungodly how many yards

And ungodly how many touchdowns and he's Not small okay but he's in the state of Texas and he's like six one and he he's Got a couple offers but you would like You know you'd be like you're perplexed That he doesn't have at least more FCS Offers right and and you you know you're Talking to the parents and the coach Obviously is a great coach working with A great program he's at and and they're All everyone's perplexed you know what I Mean and and you know they hire groups Like us to help them and we've been help Able to help them a lot but you know We're perplexed right like so um because You see something on film and you go in In the old days you would say like and I Don't mean old days like old old days I Mean like 10 years ago old days you Would see something like that and you'd Say that he's he's good he's gonna be Good this guy they're gonna I'm gonna Send this out with along with his Highlights and they're gonna come in and He's gonna get get a couple offers Pretty quickly right that that CH like You know Devon Fuller took off for the First time you know or or the game Against the great game when they play You guys played um uh pamis you beat Pamis in that back and forth game like You knew those two quarterbacks Fuller And Robertson were going to go somewhere There was no doubt after watch if you

Didn't watch anything before that and You watch just that game the way that Those two guys were playing you you were Like these guys are going there was no Doubt in your mind right now if you were To watch that game Fuller because of his Speed you you would probably say yeah But but Robertson I think would have to Work harder than than he would back then Like back then you know you saw what Robertson did and you just said hey this Guy is you know he went I think he went To Villanova you know this guy is a slam Dunk at minimum FCS um but now I would Say you I would say that because they Could recruit nationally they they'd be Making a Robertson show up at camps you Know and maybe Fuller doesn't have all You know isn't like an All-American Maybe he's not an All-American maybe He's you know he's um a a five or six Offer guy instead of a guy that has a Milli offers and I think that's the Thing that is got to me is so perplexing Because you want you want to like ask Them what has changed is is it the Portal that's made it change what what Has made it change and maybe it is the Portal because maybe they can like hedge Their bets and stuff I don't know but What has changed so much that that kid Who we know would be a slam dunk 10 Years ago somewhere uh is now has to Work his butt off to get to get a couple

Of offers yeah and That's the hardest thing to explain I I Think to explain to parents as a high School coach because parents still think About it like 10 years ago and it's not Like it's not now they've added this the New scholarship offers but you know my My brother who's a a division three Track coach told me soon as that they G Came out with the increase in offers he Said well that's that's the end of Division 3 uh like track and then he Said you know that's that's probably the Um uh for a lot of the division 3 Sports In general that's going to be an issue And I didn't understand that at first he Said well when they increase the Scholarships there the schools that have The budgets are going to you need Me Two uh they increase those those Scholarship budgets to Big schools like Ohio State and they can increase it all And they can match it with the girls but You have to match uh because of gender Equity you have to match on both sides So Below the power four Conferences it's going to be hard for Even the group of five schools or what They call group of six now like you know I say the Georgia states of the world Right like what are they gonna do and Then when it starts to trickle all the

Way down now division 3 programs start To have an issue you know and and how Does that match up for them and what a Roster start to look like because I was I thought oh well that's great because They're going to increase there he's Like no we don't have the budget to do Those things we don't have the budget to Um to match the the number of things so What what happens is some sports could Go away so I think the recruiting thing In general is is is really topheavy very Very very topheavy like if you're Ohio State or you're Georgia or you're even Ruckers now you know yeah you probably Do whatever you want and don't have to Worry about a whole lot right but if You're right below that level and and And and then keep going down it it's It's very very difficult and then FCS is I think these guys are all now just Hoping like they get the Fallout from From Fall yeah y or the transfer like You said coach yeah there that's why These guys are coming in developing Those relationships knowing like you Know guys may bounce back or you know It's it's to me like one thing my father Always taught me was never burn bridges In any facet whatsoever because you know And I look at it now right like even as A coach like hey you may advise one of Your players to go to a certain school And they go somewhere else like no hard

Feelings but now two years later they're Calling you saying coach can you help me Because you know this isn't the right Move for me or you know my head coach Just left or my position coach left and It's it's just difficult it's not you Know that decision it's you know hey This four next four years is your next 40 like that's not really the whole game Anymore I mean I when we were at that Mama 7 on seven I talked to a tight end That had just come in at 2024 he Enrolled in December and uh Marilyn kid He had some you know power four offers That fell through and his literally like Talking to him his plan was you know I'm Coming to Mammoth for two years to Develop and then I'm transferring up That was his plan and that's just a Whole different way of looking at the Situation yeah that's the amazing part Is that's the whole thing about the Portal it goes up and down like you they There's kids who drop down a level and Kids who will be plucked to pull up a Level so that's the bizarre part about It like it's open season like both ways So it's like hard to it's like they Should have two separate ones the ones That the kids were looking to drop down And play somewhere the kids were like I'm B I'm selling myself to the highest Bidder on here you know like that's Which is pretty much kind of what it is

Right it's like you know you're at like A freaking like a you know you're at a Cattle auction like yeah right like all Right I mean and we like you've been in It long enough to know like that didn't Happen like you transferred down that Was it like you didn't rarely go up and Now there's no what they would punish You it was almost like punishment for Going up right like you had to sit or You had to do something of that nature But I mean look we've talked to a number Of Ivy League coaches and those are like The guys that have graduated ivy league Are high level players those are the Ones that are getting plucked for that Grad year to go and you know plug a spot On the o on the o line or go be a DN and Those guys have been produced to even be Like you know higher draft picks because Of that's the move they've made and it's Just it's amazing to see where it is Dave and I talk about it all the time Like you have to constantly like stay in It to understand it like even if you're A parent who had a kid who went through This two years ago and now his younger Brother is like it's totally changed Game like you have to be in it and Understand it and and ask those Questions and it's just it's constantly Changing and evolving and it's it's just Eye opening really yeah it's amazing I Think I think the college coaches also

Um I I think some of them you know they They live within the system they're in You know and they have it it's brutal For those guys it's brutal for them it's You know it that's not something that's You know it's wild yeah Listen when money when money gets uh uh When money gets involved in in a really Really extreme level right where where It is now like I guess it's like the Success the success of Football um at the top especially has Become so high and everyone loves Watching college football which has Created Created Avenues obviously for Student athlet that never happened Before but with all of that and Obviously created avenues for coaches at The highest level like never before I I Think that like when you when you get to And uh a A system that was not really Meant to be a free market system but now Is kind of a free market like everybody Gets you know Finance industry right Free free market system like there's Parameters around that system there's Parameters around General business Because you know it's it's it's a you Know somewhat of a market system and you Understand what what the system is but What's happened in college sports is It's kind of like a free market system But you know what I mean like and when It's a free market system but I I call

It you know people would call it crony Capitalism right it's almost like a Crony capitalist system and what happens Is when you get in that kind of system Nobody really knows what the game is The Game's changing right and the top Players kind of know it because in Control for the most part like they're The on succeeding but the ones who Aren't in it who are lower level kind of Are trying to figure out how the system Works right and new coaches maybe they Get on at Ohio State they're trying to Figure out how the system works right And so that crony catlins you don't know What this P this player wants Financially you don't know what this Coach is is deserved of financially Until the end of the season depending on Their success or what so it's kind of Like this moving Target where there's no Rules essentially right it's unregulated And that's that's That's yeah and and like the NFL is Regulated you got a salary cap you got To work within a certain framework we Talked about this so I mean this is Completely unregulated you go back in History I'm a history teacher an Economics teacher like you go back in History any unregulated Market's going To be just survival of the fittest and That it's going to end up being just Those couple schools are going to be

Able to operate in it they're gonna have To do something you you're talking about The late 1800s with you you know your Guys with C like you know controlling Markets with like you know your Fords And your Vanderbilts and like you know What I mean like yours right like the Guys that controlled all the your Carnegies right like those guys that you Know created those monopolies and Controlled everything and you you can See it right like the big wigs of College football Oregon comes out we Have United n like yeah you know what I Mean like it's really what it is like You're linking everything up to a couple TDY Roosevelt Yeah we Do get history if anybody really like Understands their history like Teddy Roosevelt changed the game of football To make it safer so that we're actually In this world right now he brought Multiple coaches to the White House and Said I love this sport but if you don't Change it I mean he broke the monopolies Too he broke the monopol baby he's the Dude he's the man dude like he's took a Bullet to the chest Like we we need to find a Teddy Roosevelt it that Derek that's a great Great point that very you know it's one Of my favorite things on the History Channel I watched like um I know JP

Morgan and The Men Who Built America bro Those guys The Men Who Built it's so Amazing to uh to first of all I I Couldn't imagine I mean it's kudos to th Those guys that I I'm sure with when They built those monopolies especially Like you know like Rockefeller who came From nothing you know he probably sat There he said I I did all this and now They're they want like I they want to Take it away from me like you know but But it's so interesting how um you you Were able to get a a handful of guys and They started to work with each other and Then they all got to the extreme top Like such extreme yeah first of all I Couldn't my wouldn't be able to get me There from a thought process of how they Built all those you know not just built It but went from A to Z and but then to To like for Rockefeller and Carnegie and And Morgan to be able to finance and I I It's it's fascinating to me but that is What's happened in in college football Because and by the way they didn't Figure it out like those guys did you Know and it's good that Teddy Roosevelt I kind of busted it up to a certain Extent to give more people opportunity To succeed although what did although What did really happened it just became Exxon BP it just became anyway they just Changed the name and put the name was no Longer uh Standard Oil but but but it

Really is it really is because that's Basically what goes on in college it's It's actually it's it's going to be a Fascinating study but a lot a lot of College kids who could play in college At lower levels they all dream that and It's very hard to to say that there are Other opportunities there and then you Know to to get those college coaches to Recognize it is all is is also a totally Different thing you know I mean I guess That's um from a high school football Standpoint the great it almost makes High school football it gives you the Opportunity to tell them Hey listen this Is the one time for sure that you're GNA Have all your guys around pushing in the Same direction because now even if You're playing college and even if You're a division one player that school That you start out with unless you're Dead set and staying there no matter What which if I went to Duke by the way I don't care if they made me a third Stringer and like you know I'm that's One of those places I ain't leaving that Place yeah but but some you know I Understand like players will leave like I see in the transfer portal like when I See a kid they'll leave these great Academic schools yeah you know like and Go to a lesser Academic School just Thought process that part that that part To me about now what are we what are we

Doing you know what I mean they're not Thinking down the road right they see Money they see dollar signs right now And that's what they jump at or Opportunity it may be opportunity may Not even be dollar maybe I could go play Here and I'm gonna you know if something And this is not to make fun of Eastern Michigan or anything like that but if I Went to Duke and like I was the backup And then Eastern Michigan said I'd be The starter like I I'm gonna have to Figure out how to start a Duke like I'm Gonna have to figure that out you know Yeah you need like anything we always Forget they're still kids they need to Be the right way they need some Mentorship or Parental Guidance or Somebody who's experience you know like And and uh and hopefully the people They're dealing with is what you always Advise your kids when going to school You're dealing with good honest people Who are forget the football stuff like People are going to treat you the right Way and give you the right advice and Whatever help you along the way so I Mean that's what we all do no doubt About it and and I I didn't I I would Want to let you leave without touching On this um and I tell my my wife this All the time Um Derek coach is not just a phenomenal Coach but he's a phenomenal father you

Know like I and I want to say to him you Know uh over all the years and and you Know getting to know Thomas and and and And man when I came back when I was Walking down with you guys at Ruckers Like Thomas remembered everything about About me you know and and it's just it's It's a tribute to it's a tribute to Thomas uh it's a tribute to you and and And I would say that that that probably Also gives you important well gives you A little a little extra soft spot for Kids you know and understanding kids Which you know obviously helps you as a Coach but uh you know because of the Things that o over the years and you Know the job you you've really done done With him and and I mean I it like when I See him it's just a it's literally and It's obviously very rare now but yeah it Was such a joy just to see him you know It was such a joy and and yeah it really Really is awesome you're a phenomenal Father you know I appreciate it that's Nice of you he's got a he's got a great Mom a great sister too that help him out Along the way takes the village right Takes the village yeah yeah but he's Great he loves you know what unfortunate We're blessed uh he's actually running Down the stairs Tom Tom Come here you want to say hi to Coach Dave I hear him running down the steps

Want to say hi to Coach Dave who's on The Zoom Coach Dave hey Tom what's going on Bud hi how you been I'm good you're good It's good to see you man it's good to See your face buddy I miss you feary 1 He's awesome yeah awesome hey coach I'll Let you go it's been great having you on Yeah thanks guys awes coach thanks for With you guys for sure absolutely good Luck this season huh do good things yeah Thank you thank you we'll see you soon Coach yeah for sure thanks buddy all Right have a great day see you guys all Right Bye that that was great that was great Oh he he was working towards our uh time Time frame records you know um I might [ __ ] if like he's group three I'm group Three I'm scared well well you don't you Would only play them if you went North Ver South right final final final Final Group group three final would be against Them if we if that's how what it came Down to right like because everybody Plays down to a group Champ well you probably you probably a Year or two away from that or you think You're there you think you're there now 10 no are you Crazy uh maybe if I had a couple of Apartment C maybe if I had a couple Apartment complexes we'd be all right

You probably do have a couple apartment Get some address changes but other than That I don't think that's how it worked How it's working but yeah dude he's Phenomenal he's great you can tell you Could tell the impact he's had on his Players and all that other kind of stuff Runs a good you know quote I call it Clean program right like you never hear About any issues going on with any of That stuff he's not Overkill when it Comes to certain things or whatnot but You know he's going to voice his opinion And do what he thinks is the right thing And he's earned that you know being There and being as successful as he had In all those years you know what I mean Like he can write his own ticket in Terms of when he wants to be done or Whatnot but you could tell he's still Got a lot of juice left in it dude he Ain't going anywhere oh yeah Co coaches You know I I want to say if he I would Say he's a maximum of five years older Than me m Maybe I'm trying to think because he was Definitely in the 80s I think he might Maybe he was a little um I always I Always think of things of sbook was Known for running backs in the in the Old days and like I I was kind of like You know one of those guys in that crew And I always would think about as a kid The errors of each running back so

Before me like okay that was the error Of Jim pestor that was the ER of SC Scott Ali that was the era of Joe Biano um and so uh I think he was I Think I want to say he's either Joe Biano early 80s or maybe he might be mid I think he might be mid- ages when he Graduated so he's probably I would say Six might be mid like 50 he's a great Shape always works out so um that's huge Too like you know how it is like that's Important but his players I mean listen He's produced a lot of guys he's been in A lot of state finals he's been a lot of Won a lot of championships like you know Looking at his schedule man he opens up With West Essex like opens up with a Hammer right off the shot like you know What I mean like they love playing um Listen he his strength index his Strength index for is 79.9 which is way higher than a lot of Teams dude I mean he's got West essic Riverdell Bergenfield Ramapo pamis Northern Highlands Wayne Hills pasak Valley I mean yeah I I remember that From when when when I was there and and Then obviously these last few years are Helping him out everyone you know they Would they would always have you know Ramp they don't duck anyone man no uh Public school wise Listen he was one of the last believe it Or not this before I got there but he

Was one I remember this he was one of The last guys to continue to play the Parochial every year he would play St Joe he would play St Joe's and he would Just deal with the get you know um hang For a half but you know wasn't like you Know but he would he was the last he Didn't care I love that he was the last Of the guys I'm telling you he was the Last of the big big schools to play That's how it should be though like you Know the last them he's not he's not Ducking anybody you know what I'm saying Like oh we shouldn't before it became Too crazy yeah before it became like Like now like you know oh now it's like I mean Bergen Joe's I don't know about What BOS situation is now but Bergen Joe's as far as what talent I'm not Talking about what their wins or losses Are going to be I don't I have no idea But um but as far as the talent level They have I mean every position is like Uh uh you know at least an FCS guy Almost at least that's why I said like Hey I know you some like sometimes you Have that player player that dude but Every year like you might not have a Fuller but he's got a multitude of Players that and look they might just be Great high school players but he he has A guy but he gets them to play at a Level that's FS that kid he's got now is a stud dude

Ultan is one of those places that each Year there's definitely a guy that I Would say is probably a minimum FCS and Then he sometimes he has two you know But his staff and and we didn't talk a Whole lot about it but like his staff You know obviously he's phenomenal his Staff is phenomenal like those guys and And they're all and honestly they're all Cool guys like they're all like not just Great football coaches and stuff um but They're all like really cool guys I Think that's a harder thing than ever to Be able to get to mesh as a and then Keep guys together right and that are Okay with that role you know what I'm Saying like because guys want to move They want to jump here they you know People have kids like that stuff changes Like guys that are just like hey this is The role that I am like we're good I Think I'm gonna get Joe clous on because I I want first of all Joe Joe Joe will Be uh Jo Joe is the the the uh the the Spark plug you know where Co coach dun Is is um very calm and steady you know Jo Joe be Joe will be great to have on And just to talk defense by the way his His uh his um the way his brain works Defensively his scheme uh no but the way He thinks about it The way is hise like one of the I think That's one of the most underrated things Is like you know sometimes you got to

Really understand like like if you like You've known me now forever like you can Understand why I do things certain ways Like when it comes to like you know what I mean like if you're and that listen Those guys have been together so long Like he understands his staff to a point Where he knows exactly why they how They're thinking and then what they're Doing because of that thinking right Like that's when you have that within a Staff itself it's why you look and every Year you say oh Ulta Pan's winning Ulta Pan's winning like that's what it takes I think to be successful like you can do It the other way but you have to be one Hell of a coach and have a lot of Surrounding support when you're Constantly turning things over and doing That kind of stuff plus and now the Great but I'll tell you this this is the Other thing that I you I mean you would Have it and with guys that were on the Same page that but there's a level As intense as they are I'm telling you They are hilarious so of course you have To have a level of humor they are so Funny and they all have like their own Personalities where it's it's like You're all talking and it's just funny Like it's it's but the kids also react To that right and that's how they've Built that culture and like even like And those kids know like hey this is a

Time where it's like this and now it's All right hey it's time to but button Down and like let's roll but at the end Of the day like it's all about winning And we're going to do what needs to be Done to win and I think that's you know Like he said like when we talked about The evolution of his HVAC and all that Stuff like that just came because it was Another way to put another kid in a good Situation and then also okay we can do This right like so you constantly evolve And and you know with your kids in mind First like off the field on the field he Handles all of it my my own my uh my Only concern as far as like as a dad From a dad standpoint that a lot of the Because of my I think the age that I am When my kid gets to high school my I I Just hope that's a lot of these guys That um have really done great things Are still around to maybe coach my kid Because um well you hope I hope because There's a because obviously the world's Changing for coaches a lot big time man Like and so you know obviously un you're Inas get respected look look how many in The shore that exited right so Seven or eight this year was like it was Like seven or eight and a lot of guys That were a few Legends right so guys That you would be like wait he's he's Hanging it up he's got years in the tank And all that kind of stuff like you're

Right and you say yourself oh you know I Wouldn't have mind my and it's not like They're old old either so um but I think That that's evolving and and I'm sure Some of the younger guys will replace That you know in time but what I do Think about some of the guys in that Like I don't know mid-40s to like 608 Like TW almost like a you don't want to Say midlife crisis but like midlife Crisis that a well I'm saying the Coaches in that age range right grew up In a time period where they saw all These things happen so they kind of have A different perspective because they Don't want it to like you know what I Mean like hey am I gonna literally leave My stamp on this and do this for however Many years and I'm going to be a a Football coach or do I want to go and do You know maybe something else or test The waters Or Relocating retire I think they'll retire People don't right or they get pushed Out or you know people don't live in the Same place anymore for 40 50 years Hey Howard schum Howard Schuman got pushed Out at 80 how old 85 one of the most I I would say uh Ridiculous things in uh any Co when I Say Legend among Legends Legend among Legend But you get it the administration is a

New like a newer Administration and you know hey I want To go a different direction we gonna do His wife had cancer they didn't like That he was taking her to the treatments Okay she died obviously sadly um and Then then the guy had to go in for like A major when I mean major back surgery Like could possibly not make it through Made it through because he's like iron But made made it through and obviously He's doing very well and they used all Those things to like P push him out and I say you know in world people want to Do it that like that like come on man do You really want to be a part of that you Know what I'm saying I well that's the Thing I think that like younger people Can learn just like we were able to Learn from older people be willing to Learn from older people and that's hard Because they can get information from Anywhere and it's hard like you you'll See it with your kid I see my kid could Go on YouTube and search for something And find information on it like he like He can know the exact same thing that I Know about the history of football in His head right because he not I I lived It he can go and search it watch a whole Video on Dan Marino regurgitate it back To me and maybe know even the stats more Intimately than I do you know what I'm Saying right right what other time

Period in the world obviously you had to Read books to get that now how many Books can you read at a time you know I Mean so now you can go and watch a three Minute video get that information on Let's say Dan Marino Gail sers uh Walter Payt and then if I asked you a question About it you could regurgitate it back To me as if you lived in that era right Um but you really didn't know what that Time period is like but you know the Information about that era and I think That That's that's the hardest thing for Younger coaches getting because you can You could theoretically if you wanted to Watch enough video to know maybe even More than the head Coach it's why teaching is so hard you Give out a Sy somebody can go do all the Research and and figure out everything That's going on in the course right so Why do I need to teach it if I you know I gave you a syllabus you went and Googled everything and now you know all The information now is it correct Information well that's on you right Which is why to me especially being a History teacher like as long as I know You can go you have the ability to go And find the information or get the Right answers like that's all I care About like I'm not going to sit here and Make you memorize dates and all that

Other [ __ ] you can go look it Up good point and and you'll remember it From looking it up so absolutely and and Then like it's more of the process to Look it up right like let me teach you That right because if I can teach you How to fix a problem or how to find an Answer that relates to everything in Life itself like figure out a way to do It you know what I mean like you you Didn't used to be able to do that you'd Have to read a whole book to figure out One thing that now literally takes you 10 seconds you don't even have to type You could freaking ask Siri and get an Answer it's a different era man like you Gotta figure that out that's why I do Love Um um like ma like not the new school Math but like the memorization math Because it forces you to be analytical Like the To to like the new school math was based Off of kids not being able to memorize Tim Taes you know what I mean like we used To get memorize it you know you remember Those sheets of aund time taes and you Just have to go through them and answer Them over and over and over and over It's just part of it like you had to Memorize it in order to move forward now It was like okay well if they can't Memorize that well let's give them a way

To go and do it now yes that teaches you That there's a process to getting an Answer and you have to go through it to Get it I I understand but there's also Some things that like dude you just got To remember that right like you know Like I don't know how many times I think That all that all ends up failing Failing because as like Ai and computers Have evolved like going through that Process is just dumb right you're better Off and now it's like now it's like why Are you taking the time to whatever Whatever like you know what I mean like Speed it up like let's go you know so You'd be better I want to know nine Times nine if I had it memorized that's 81 one that's faster than the guy having To look it up but if you use the old Method the the new method that they came Up with you're better off just looking It up you know because 100% because now You're taking all that time to get to The same spot it's very it's very very That was that was good he's good man I Like him I would love to play for him I'd run through a wall oh you would you Would and his players love him right Because they love what it is they love Like he he's got the combination uh of Uh like I said like he had he has the Combination of like understanding the Ins and outs of the kid with with the Offensive like you know Genius Like

Mindset like with within his like he Really that system you know like when I I originally when I worked with nyus I Took some pieces of his system uh and Then right well that's what you do you You everybody takes a little bit of Something from here a little bit of Something from here and now all of a Sudden you got something great he his His his system as far as uh DJ's DJ's Most brilliant thing to me always was uh His methodology of the no huddle and the Numbering system I always thought that Was he obviously he knows offense you Know I mean that I all know but uh and He knows the passing game and all those Kind of things very intimately but I Always thought that the way he made it Simple from for the kids from that Standpoint was just uh brilliant well I Think that's that's one of the biggest Puzzle pieces man is how can you late How can you make something so simple That your players aren't you know Sitting here like worrying about that Right cuz now they can play faster play Better like because if there's less Thinking it doesn't slow it down and you Can just kind of go that's I think one Of The that with the the the best coaches Are the ones that can get their system Through to the kids in the easiest way And now you know to show that with that

Spreadwing teas type system I don't know Call it but he's done it with with he's Made the Actual play System yes fast and and and easy but it Also looks it really is dynamic it's Dynamic like you can't T like you don't Know what he's gonna do but like you're Like well he's not in really that many Sets but like you don't know what he's Gonna do like and those kids are so good At what they do it doesn't matter what You do right like I think that's one of The things that was built into us when I Was the run and shoot and everything It's like look I don't care what they do We're going to be so good at what we do That that's not going to matter and I Think that's an approach that you know I Don't know how many guys actually take It that way they might say it but I Don't know if they actually do it like That's what you have to and what if your Kids buy into that like I don't care What they do worry about us it's about Us and how good we are Like that changes the name of the game I Think the um Gus Mal I don't know if I Have watched his games anymore UCF yeah I haven't watched as much but when Gus Maon was at Auburn and and when he was In high school um that's what dun's uh Offensive play System reminded me of Like I was like wow you know I actually

Saw this it wasn't exact but I saw this When I used to talk to Gus mazan in the Mid 2000s when he was a high school Coach he was winning all those games Before he went to college and I saw him Use that system and then he was using it At Auburn like he was using that wng te Blocking from gun and I was like wow so So what I actually what I actually Coached with dun and like he was kind of Doing that I was like wow I'm like okay This is a great uh as a a coach a great Opportunity to Learn um of this system because I Definitely you know i' I played against The wing te and Co coached against it And knew how to stop it maybe Defensively like what I would do but Never ran the offensive version of it And and how it would work and like the Blocking scheme and and the ins and outs Of it it's it's such a it really is like And it really is an amazing blocking System that that's the best like let's Take all the the back part of it and Guys you the the system blocking wise is So good and so sound it's like uh it's Understandable to see why there are People who just R the old school wing Still like like literally just because Of The Blocking system they don't even Care they like um you know my Quarterback's you know just handing off The ball most of the time and only run a

Boot and waggle but it's uh uh the System blocking system is so good but Anyway let's get off it great great Podcast um and good luck excellent good Luck at camp this week here we go get After those boys it's not even like it Used to be though you know what I Mean not that it's disa pointing but Like you just don't have to prepare like Okay here we go you know what I mean Like oh boy like even like you know you Even Aaron Rogers has talked about it Like can't in preparation yeah it's Mental and plus you've done already so Much work throughout the summer that you Know what I mean like a lot of the stuff Is just like now we're putting now the Fun part is like hey now we're putting On pads but even that's not like it used To like you ain't starting practice with An Oklahoma drill anymore on the first Day of pads dude like no you're right no You're 100 right all right here we

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